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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.16 20:12:00 -
[1]
Dear CCP ,
I really like where you are going with these blogs. Alot of bitter vets are passing off these blogs as alot of talk and no substance. I can somewhat agree with this statement however im a optimist. With that said I think optimism is fading fast with the community. I cannot stress enough that this next expansion be a major step back in restoring the trust with the community that CCP gets what its customers want. Get it right and I think Eve will thrive and grow once more get it wrong and I think the final nail in the coffin will be cast.
With the above said these past few blogs have shown that you are finally listening to us . That CCP is REALLY trying to think about things organically from a players perspective. This seems to be a clear change from trying to release some new and shiny feature in hopes that it will capture attention. Design milestone and technical achievements are cool for a company to look upon as a measurable achievement. However us the paying customer usually don't share the same view. We want to log into a immersive environment where we have liberty to do a multitude of things and the game mechanics cultivate interaction at every level.
Here is my list of top problems.
Risk should always match reward - Currently it does not 0.0 should be the beacon that most players are lured to for income potential. If you think about how we as humans lay out our societies you will notice that Eve is completely different. In real life rural areas ( 0.0 ) are where resources are collected/grown/harvested. Whereas cities (low/high sec ) are commerce centers and production centers. The MAJOR majority of resources as in 85% should stem from 0.0 or wormholes. Whereas 85% of commerce & production should be in low/highsec. Trying to create realistic commerce in 0.0 is unrealistic as demand sets markets. However 0.0 isn't a open market due to "not wanting hostiles having access to your stations or not wanting to aid a enemy". The goal should be to create lots of interaction between zones. Because with this interaction comes opportunity for loss / gain / pvp / diplomacy / metagame. Thus is how humans have crafted society for millenium's .
Stacking penalties - It is one of the greatest features of Eve. It defines how we fit our ships etc it places reasonable and artificial limits on things that we as players would otherwise abuse. This should extend to most facets of the game. Bigger should not always be better. It is my view that If you have a very large alliance you should have lowered attributes in other areas. Less standings , weaker structures , logistics should be harder for larger organizations as they have a larger pool of players to accomplish these task.
My idea on how to accomplish this in a fair and balanced way is a by assigning organizations a pool of points with many things in which to allocate those points. Organizations will have to make conscious choices on how they allocate those points based on there structure or organization there needs and desires. Examples would be a large organization would allocate more points into allowing there alliance/corp to include more characters. A smaller sov holding alliance might put points into how many positive standings they have to pool strength with other like minded organizations. Or a organization might place more points into increasing the defenses of their sov. As in POS's with greater defense capabilities or hardened sov structures etc. Perhaps a organization is more interested in resource harvesting & collection perhaps they would points into that area that would allow their mining harvesters to collect more ore. Nomadic entities might put points into making there capitals use less fuel or have better range.
The overarching point of this mechanic is it allows diversity and specialization. Instead of bigger is better mentality. Organizations could reassign points at a cost as needs change.
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.17 18:15:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Dex Ironmind
Balance the sandbox, don't slant it toward null. Isn't the idea of a sandbox to let the players build it. CCP should just give us cool toys to play with in the sandbox. All this NULL-centric focus that has the FIS space team currently occupied seems to resonate of a "herding" mentality. They may say it is not, but that is the only logical conclusion to draw.
CCP... Greyscale ... quit trying to herd us. Give us better toys and content that allow us to play in the sandbox as we see fit.
This is a good argument.
The problem with Hi-Sec as I see it is ISK can be made to easily there with little to no risk. As it stands mission runners incursion runners and giant mining corporation exist in hi-sec. The reason being is they can make there isk without much in the way of real risk. That isk they make is almost on par with isk that can be made in 0.0.
Should be:
Hi-Sec (AKA Commerce zone)- Major Commerce center , minor mining/resource collection , minor mission running , minor production
Lo-Sec (AKA Industry zone)- Major production center , minor mining/resource collection , medium mission running , minor commerce
0.0 Wormhole (AKA Rural zone) - Major mining / resource collection , major mission running , minor production , minor commerce
This would create dependency and interaction between zones without eliminating any activity in any zone. The idea is different zones have there own unique strengths and weakness's. So a guy/girl that wants to mission or mine in safety can do so in hi-sec but his/her return is lower than low-sec which is lower than null-sec. A guy/girl who wants to do production can do so safely in hi-sec/0.0 but its limited or they can do it in lowsec and have higher/better production rates which = more return. A guy/girl wanting to be a marketeer can do so in any zone but major commerce zone is in hi-sec although some commerce opportunities will be available on open but more dangerous low sec markets or even more dangerous and closed market 0.0. Wormholes still retain the benefit of being the wild west uncharted and uncontrollable where unique commodities are harvested & collected.
With this template you have interaction on all levels. Goods will need to be harvested and collected of which some areas will be better or worse than others. Groups will seek to take these areas from eachother. These areas will need policing so that materials and commodities can be collected. These areas will be ripe for raiders to come pillage and kill the unprotected or to skirmish with the policing force within. Commodities will need to be transported out to production and commerce zones. That will require logistics and protection for that logistics which also creates opportunity for pvp and metagame & a host of other possible interactions.
Within lowsec commodities will need to be moved in and goods out. Logistics will need to be protected and pirates will **** and pillage the unweary and unprotected. Groups will form that specialize in production but they will need to interact with a police force that will protect them so they can carry out there task. Missioning pilots will be able to tap into better return and rewards for doing missions in this area. Mining will be noticeably better then Hi-Sec but more dangerous.
Within highsec all major markets exist this is where the bulk of all resources , commodities and goods are traded and sold. There is huge potential for profit through marketing and manipulation. Mining and missioning are also possible here and are very safe but the return is halved of lowsec which is halved of nullsec. Production is also possible here but the efficiency is half of that of lowsec & the same as 0.0
The idea is to take nothing away from any area but to make it more ideal to do a certain activity in a certain area. This will not limit activity but encourage it in focused points.
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.17 22:41:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Dex Ironmind
TL ; DR screw lowsec screw nullsec don't nerf my risk free high sec uber income
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.17 23:32:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dex Ironmind
Edited by: Dex Ironmind on 17/08/2011 23:15:18
Originally by: Manfred Sideous
Originally by: Dex Ironmind
TL ; DR screw lowsec screw nullsec don't nerf my risk free high sec uber income
LOL. I agree with one part of your tl;dr. Don't unnecessarily nerf any segment of space to attempt to enhance another, particulary in a sandbox. As for your assessment of NULL and LOW, well... try again.
Balance the game. Apply some balance to the various sectors of space. Do it by enhancing, adding, giving us toys. Don't just redistribute wealth. Forced redistribution of wealth, or the potential to be wealthy, never works. Give folks the tools and let them figure the wealth part out on their own.
Dex was here. 
Thats exactly why different zones of space should be better at different things then others but all things should be possible in all parts of space. Much like society IRL or do you think its logical to run a strip mining operation and a farm that harvest resources in a urban center? Do you also see factories next door to wall street? You can do so but it isn't optimum. Thus the rational behind my suggestion. My suggestion does not take any tools away from anyone it only entices activities in different zones that will cause interaction and interdependency . Is my suggestion finite - no not at all but the nice part is you can tweak and balance. Its not adding some fancy bell or whistle in hopes it will create interaction. Its taking existing content and molding it to a more logical societal structure. Humans have functioned this way for millenia.
As of right now you farm/collect/harvest produce sell/trade/buy almost everything in 1 zone. So within the boundaries of New York for example they would grow all the resources build all the goods and sell all the goods from within the boundaries of that location. Really is that even logical even fathomable?
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.18 00:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Dex Ironmind
I don't want to log in to play real life. I want to log in for fantasy, sci fi and fun. Hence the need for volatility.
Dex was here.
So are you spaceship captain , Miner , Marketeer , Soldier in real life? Because in Eve you can be all of these things and much more. What im saying is different areas should be predisposed to certain endeavors better than other areas. However ALL ACTIVITIES should be able to take place in ALL AREAS. Just that if you do activity X in zone that has a bonus to activity X you will earn/yield/produce etc etc more. Im saying empire/high-sec ( pick your term) is more like a urban center in a urban setting you wouldn't see things like a logging operation , a strip mine a farm those things would be in a rural setting. You wouldn't normally see factories and industry in a rural setting they would be closer to logistic lines and well supplied markets.
Empire - Urban
Low sec - Industrial area
null sec - rural area
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.18 23:24:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Erik Finnegan
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Seraphina Amaranth
I think the principle
Quote:
"Our current proposal is that hisec is for volume T1 goods, lowsec will be for meta/faction gear eventually, nullsec is for T2, and wormholes are for T3"
won't work.
A better principle would be
"highsec is for all goods, but expensive to produce, low-sec is for cheaper production but riskier transport, and null-sec is for more profitable, faster production, provided you can build the infrastructure"
Yup, this is the direction I'm increasingly leaning in, based on the feedback we've been getting here.
^ This. Over at the industry thread.
And what Dex writes about the Sandbox needing tools; not herding.
Greyscale this is a good compromise but I truly believe there needs to be more interaction and dependency between zones. I think empire should have a bonus to X activity Lowsec to Y activity and Null Sec to Z activity. Whereby all activities are possible everywhere but rational would suggest they be conducted in the area that is best/ most efficient. I really like my analogy of null sec being a rural area lowsec being a industrial area and empire being a urban area.
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.19 18:16:00 -
[7]
Empire people wanting to retain all the income and gain no risk :nonshocker:
All of this Nullsec isn't endgame talk is nonsense. It has nothing to do with endgame it has to do with Risk vs Reward. Why is it that nullsec people risk all for less return then empire where the only risk is a suicide ganker? Where is the thrill or sense of accomplishment of getting reward where no risk was levied?
Nullsec is dieing as is. Without some remap to draw people (not force) to it it will surely die. Currently there is no reason to go to nullsec other than PVP. Which you can get in empire in more controllable palatable increments for younger players than nullsec. Except the epic space battles CCP use as a marketing tool all happen in low/nullsec.
Risk vs Reward is way off in Eve Online and has been for some time. Stop deflecting the conversation to "Endgame" because in a sandbox there is no endgame but what you make.
Less risk Less reward More risk More reward. |
Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.21 04:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dalilus
Edited by: Dalilus on 20/08/2011 23:05:04
More people like to carebear in high sec than pvp in low or null sec. That's just the way it is. If it were the other way around there would be tons of players in low/null sec and high sec would be a graveyard. Nullsec alliances would have thousands upon thousands of noobs begging to be let in and lemming event cannon fodder roams would be the norm. Imagine the killboards stats full of rookie ships.
If CCP wants to lure carebears into low/null sec with the way the game mechanics are set up right now, not gonna happen. Ever heard of ganking? For example, why do carebears run such pimped up ships? Believe me, its not for the bling or bragging rights about epeen size, its because you can finish a mission in a fraction of the time. Running a Blockade or Extravaganzza in a regular tech 2 fit ship with +3 implants easily takes 2 - 3 hours or more but fly an all faction fit regular battleship with +5 implants and you can finish the mission including salvaging in an hour or less. Am I going to take a 4+ billion isk BS to lowsec, never mind nullsec, to be scanned, ganked and paraded on a killboard? Sure, right, dream on. Don't get me started on thinking about flying a 12+ billion isk officer fit marauder to run lvl 5s in low/null sec. That marauder has turned into an expensive hangar queen with no use at the moment. Not everyone can play EVE for several hours a day.
I left my mommie's house many years back and I don't need a substitute like a FC, corp CEO, or anybody else telling me how to fleet up, what ship to fly, what time to be online, how long to be online and least of all complain when I choose to make isk instead of going on a roam. Why? So I can purchase that Pith-X type shield boost amplifier I need for a battleship and maybe save for months for a couple of Estamel's modified invulnerability fields. More solo content please, a lot MORE solo content please. Not everyone likes to sit in a circle and circle jerk while saying gf, gf, gf...rawr or whatever.
There was a time when the CSM was run by carebears that did not care or understand nullsec. Their bad. Now that the worm has turned and the loons are running the asylum we find that the CSM is run by nullsec alliances that don't give a squat or understand high sec - eventhough that's where most of EVE players reside, live and die - except to turn it into a killing ground so their members can amuse themselves while PVPing.
Anyways IMO the way CCP is thinking about implementing NPC nullsec sounds interesting in principle, maybe set it up so that it feels more like wormhole space that regular nullsec? Get rid of local? Make it so that the solo players can carve out a niche without being hot dropped by a bored blob that has not seen a target in a couple of hours? 
I think its about time players that live in nullsec stop being disingenuous and understand, accept, come to grips or what have you that if their preference is to spend their hard earned isk blowing up and getting blown up in shiny internet space ships while doing PVP so be it. But stop whining that they never have isk because that is their free-will decision. We carebears prefer to spend and risk our isk and shiny ships in other ways. I some times think the end game of nullsec alliances is force CCP to give them free ships so they can pvp to their hearts content at no cost to themselves because they "promote the game".
PS. Bring back ship spinning in hangar? 
If 0.0 doesn't improve im moving to empire with friends and will spend all my time suicide ganking people just like you.
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.22 07:35:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Defiah Kadeyooh
Life in EVE needs to become tougher again
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.24 21:50:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Issler Dainze
Originally by: Soldarius
lots of reasonable stuff.
Good Poast
This is me a veteran Eve player who has lead corporations , Alliances , coalitions , Owned Sov, Built Stations , Pilot Supercarrier & Titan mostly agreeing with everything you say. Despite being a *****y bittervet & member of elite pvp organization I still care about and love this game. The sandbox offers something no other game can deliver. Drama Politics metagame however the sandbox is in need of MAJOR overhaul because it is severely broken. I log into other MMO's that are well engineered and have miticulous scripted content and think to myself if only Eve was engineered this well or had this production quality.
Fix my sandbox!
♥Manny
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.25 18:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Khaka Ohino
How is Nerfing Highsec and WH space going to get 0.0 dewellers to actually mine and produce? I know this may come as a surprise, but every player doesn't what to be in 0.0! Some of us are very happy not dealing with bubbles and bombs. As a matter of fact, I think that's the majority of the playerbase according to the (now defunct Quarterly report). Didn't they move the High Ores out of empire? Yeah, moving them to exclusively 0.0 has really improved things.
-KO
Nobody says you have to leave empire. This is a carrot approach not a stick approach. Meaning that if you are a player who likes to undertake this activity then you can do it anywhere however if you wish to make more isk doing so then nullsec dangles a giant carrot in front of your eyes calling to you " Come to me my lovely and I will yield to you bounty beyond your wildest imagination". IMHO the overarching strategy is to make all activities everywhere however some areas are better at certain activites than others with each unique area having its own Strength. If you get production happening in 1 place resource collection in another and commerce and research invention in another then you end up with interaction between those places which imo makes the game more diverse and immersive.
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.25 21:20:00 -
[12]
Sov needs to be exponentially expensive whereby instead of just a flat fee it scales the more you have. Same with cynojammers , Jumpbridges , Cyno Beacons. I have been preaching the idea that Different Zones ( nullsec , lowsec, empire) Should have bonuses to different activites. Much like real life 0.0 is like a rural area where rescources are collected/harvested. Lowsec is like a industrial area where you would see facotries & production whereby Empire is like a urban area where you would see Science & Technology & Markets.
0.0 Changes
 Mining Lasers yield X% more per cycle ( suggest 20%nullsec 5% lowsec -10%empire)
Stations become wreckable where no functions work other than dock you cannot store items only remove previously stored items
Sov becomes exponentially expensive whereby a formula calculates sov cost by the number of claimed system
Modules such as CSAA , Cyno Generator Beacons , JumpBridge , Cynosaurel Jammer increase sov cost based on same formula as Sov payments are calculated
Local chat is changed to delayed mode , Constellation chat stays the same , Directional Scanner is reworked for better functionality and its functions are macroable via hotkeys
You can now increase military index to support many more players however index's deterioration happens at faster rates when underutilized
Loot from NPC's is higher meta level then empire and the same as lowsec.
Treaty system is introduced which makes rental agreements better
NPC Nullsec
Mining Lasers yield X% more per cycle ( suggest 20%nullsec 10% NPC nullsec 5% lowsec -10%empire)
Datacores are rewards from pirate factions
Local chat is changed to delayed mode , Constellation chat stays the same , Directional Scanner is reworked for better functionality and its functions are macroable via hotkeys
Loot from NPC's is higher meta level then empire and the same as lowsec.
Lowsec Changes
Production is X% more time and material efficient (suggest 20% lowsec 0% nullsec 0% empire )
Local chat is changed to delayed mode , Constellation chat stays the same , Directional Scanner is reworked for better functionality and its functions are macroable via hotkeys
Treaty system is introduced where parties can pay tribute to pirate or anti-pirate organizations to protect or not attack them in a specific area.
Booster production is possible here with new and stronger types of boosters. ( mining boosters)
Loot from NPC's is higher meta level than empire and same as nullsec.
Empire Changes
Invention is possible here @ X% success bonus ( Empire 10% Lowsec 0% Nullsec -10%)
Research/Copy is X% faster here and there are X% more research slots per station (Empire 20% Lowsec 0% Nullsec -10%)
Buy/Sell is greatly enhanced here with the availability of more buy/sell orders than lowsec/nullsec tax is also lowest here than lowsec/nullsec
Loot from NPC's is limited to meta 1 & 2
Global Changes
All corporations & alliances are assigned a resource pool of points which they can allocate to customize there organizations.
Baseline corporation size XX members Alliance XXX expandable from level 0 to level 10
Baseline corporation standings limit 2 Alliance 4
Baseline corporation hanger divisions 2
Baseline amount of corporations allowed in a alliance X expandable from level 0 to level 10
Optional Alliance hanger Division expandable from default 0 to 5
Mining laser yield 0% scaling to 10% across 10 levels
Production Efficiency and Material wastage scaling from 0% efficiency & -10% wastage to 10% efficiency & 0% wastage (Note* NPC corporations are default setting)
Research/Copy efficiency scaling from 0% to 10% (Note* NPC corporations are default setting)
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.25 21:24:00 -
[13]
Continued
Booster Production efficiency scaling from 0% to 25% effciency
Sov structures have a baseline 25% hp value of current structures expandable to 100% of current hp value
Player operated structures have a baseline reinforce timer of 50% of current expandable to 150%
Player operated structures have a baseline powergrid and cpu 50% of current expandable to 150%
Moon Harvesters have a baseline HP's 50% of current and are expandable to 500% and are now on the exterior of the structure
POS Fuel usage default @ 10% more than current values expandable to 15% less than current values
Corporation & Alliance upkeep cost with concord expandable to 0 cost ( dont pay or dont put points into this and after 90days delinquency POOF)
Capital Ship Fuel Usage Efficiency scaling from 10% more usage to -10% usage
Free Bi-Annual resource point re-allocation. Additional re-allocations available for purchase via concord at a scaling rate.
Smuggling & Black Market Trading can be concealed from concord @ scaling % from level 1-10
(CAN LITERALLY KEEP ADDING TO THIS MECHANIC TO CREATE MORE CONSCIOUS CHOICES BASED ON A ORGANIZATIONS NEEDS/DESIRES)
Global Changes cont.
Dreadnaught Siege timer reduced to 5 minutes fuel requirement reduced by 50% can receive remote rep/energy Xfers whilst in siege
Black Ops can warp cloaked Jump range increase by 25%
Supercarriers no longer have the ability to launch drones only fighters & fighter bombers.
Titan turret tracking reduced by 25%
Jumpfreighter range reduced to titan range
Hybrid turret falloff increased by 30%
Electronic attack frigates receive assault frigate resist bonus
T3 subsystems can now be refit at a ship maintenance array
All moon resources are depleteable and randomly shift the probability of higher tier resources is based off of truesec status
Comets are introduced as exploration sites moon goo can be mined by a new type of mining fitting complete with T2 & Faction variants
Bounty Hunter and Merc button in all stations players can place want ads with rewards and Bounty Hunters & Mercs can list services & rates whereby want to hire & want to be hired contracts can be issued.
Age of Nano is restored giving small gangs the ability to disengage against overwhelming odds.
Logistic ship have range bonus reduced by 50% HP's increased by 30%
The idea is to give corporations and alliances a talent point tree (if you will). With this they can specialize there corp alliance to fit there needs. Because as is there is 1 template bigger = better. I say if you are bigger than there should be some balance to that to make the playing field more level. Being bigger should be because of community not because huddling more numbers is win. So if you want a bigger alliance you spec for a bigger alliance but it takes points from other areas. You are forced to make conscious decisions to fit your needs. Perhaps by increasing the amount of members your alliance can hold you have weaker sov sttructures. Or perhaps you wont put points into industry related things because you are pvp focused. Or for a nomadic entity perhaps they would want to be able to use less cap fuel or have better/increased range. The tradeoff for speccing that direction is they won't have points to put elsewhere.
As things are now. The big fish gobbles up all resources and stymies any potential of growth for new organizations. The only way to enter 0.0 as is by being a pet or renter or living in NPC space. This is why 0.0 has become less and less populated. Show me a alliance that owns sov that has succeeded without being a pet or renter in the last 3-4 years.
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Manfred Sideous
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.09.01 20:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: pussnheels
@ manfred
While you do have some good points , these changes are not only about statistics alone, if you want more industrialist into nullsec there has to be a mentallity change. Among the nullsec pvp player base aswell
Most industrialist i know in game will not gointo nullsec for several reasons
Gung ho pvp only mentallity of most nullsec players
Why would you need miners and industrialist while my mongoo and ratting bots can provide me with enough iskies to buy everything i want
Second security why would you as a pvper watch over a bunch of hulks mining while you could be doing some plexing instead of being bored as hell
And thirdly nerfing high sec industry / mining while buffing nullsec that will not be used no matter how good you buff it will only alienate more players
I will be very happy if they come up with a system that will reward the nullsec alliances that have a balanced numbers of players in both industry and pvp players, without nerfing highsec to death
No what is really needed is a mentallity change not a nerf highsec industry to death for the glory of nullsec RMT profits
The idea is to provide incentive for different activities in different places whilst not eliminating the possibility of any activity anywhere. Furthermore with the "Talent Tree" mechanic it would mean that you would want to have industrial specialized corps because they are specced in that direction. Because PVP corps won't be able to do the same functions efficiently. This builds inclusiveness and interaction. Both of which are cornerstones of a MMORPG.
I am a team player if the organization I was with decided to do mining because it made sense we would need to protect it. That protection gives incentive for the possibility of aggressors to attack. This causes content and interaction. Back in the day before high-sec was boosted to hell these types of things were common occurrences in nullsec.
You cannot force people to do any activity. However if you dangle a big enough carrot people will do it. Proof of this statement is the Titan it was supposed to be a costly beast with a huge logistical barrier to construct one. However players saw the benefits and made it happen. The same prinicpal applies here. The only difference is CCP has made mechanics that has made us all soft. Everything is too easily obtainable and in that convenience we have lost interaction the need to function as a team to make isk or gather resources. I have seen so many game developers do the same thing " Cave to whiners" that want everything easy. Games slowly die when interaction is no longer fostered when everything becomes easy mode.
Sure RMT and Bots need to be curbstomped into oblivian I also agree that there is a huge shift of mentality in players. However that can only be accomplished by reshaping things. Take the easy Independence / passive / no risk isk away. Create incentive for people to work together and interact make nullsec groups want to include industrialist and productionist in there groups.
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